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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

How is it in your country? I'm especially interested in the US (Rafał, counting on you!).

In Poland (according to my knowledge of course) people don't talk about their earnings. Sometimes they are not allowed by their companies, sometimes they are afraid of judgements, jealousy or whatever. In my opinion there is a bad attitude to people who earn a lot (when compared to what I saw in the US).
Job possition offerings also don't include possible earnings range.

Waiting for your answers!
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

My income is pretty transparent. I mean the check, when I look at it. ;)
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:
How is it in your country? I'm especially interested in the US (Rafał, counting on you!).

In Poland (according to my knowledge of course) people don't talk about their earnings.

My experience in the UK so far has taught me that salary is taboo here. Most money-related topics here are I think. Probably unless you make 200+k a year and you know it is obvious you do so there's no point in denying.

I don't know, it may be local NI thing. When I arrived here from Germany, where it was pretty normal to talk about these things, I was shocked when I was told off after asking how much rent someone was paying. I'm still not sure why that in-depth knowledge that it was, say, £500/m would be of top secret classification...Marcin B. edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 09:32
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:

Job possition offerings also don't include possible earnings range.

It depends - most academic positions do - see New Scientist for example. Also engineering jobs - the likes that pop up in LinkedIn also have that bit of information. Interestingly enough, most of them are from the 50-80k band. Anything above would be negotiable so there may be little point in writing "£95392-100624" because it may well be that this is just a vague reference point and not ultimate figure set in stone.
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:
In Poland (according to my knowledge of course) people don't talk about their earnings.
It's good, I see no points talking about it.
Unless it is supposed to be transparent... like the ones for the government officials etc.

Do you think you should talk about what you earn? If you do, what's the point?
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Marcin B.:
Rafał D.:

Job possition offerings also don't include possible earnings range.

It depends - most academic positions do - see New Scientist for example. Also engineering jobs - the likes that pop up in LinkedIn also have that bit of information. Interestingly enough, most of them are from the 50-80k band. Anything above would be negotiable so there may be little point in writing "£95392-100624" because it may well be that this is just a vague reference point and not ultimate figure set in stone.

I was talking about Poland.
It's totally default in the US BTW.

As for the UK, if so, it seems that whole Europe is socialist, it couldn't be different.....

Ilter: When it is known how much people earn their earnings depend more on how they work than on how they can negotiate their earnings. They also can not be cheated in the sense that they are told that they earn relatively a lot.

They call it free market, it works for work too.

But to have it happening you have to have different attitude than the socialist one we have here in Europe. Therefore, I wonder if it is different in the US. It is according to my experiences. I hoped that it can be observed somewhere in Europe too though...
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

But isn't it normal to have fluctuations?

Let's say you are a senior marketing manager for a Polish local company... you may earn 6 to 10k, and although the same job title, you could earn the double of that some place else.

In that sense, I see no point on sharing such info.

It's a different office, similar job, different stress ratio, different numbers.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 01:18
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

I've worked in the US on and off for 12 years now, and I can only recall 1 or 2 times when I talked to someone about how much I or they make. There is a transparency for federal and state jobs, to the point where, in some states (including mine), you can go online and see how much people make. I have several friends who work for the state of Idaho, and - yes - I have shamelessly checked their salaries, but I would not discuss it with them, because, let's face it, it's politically incorrect.

When you apply for a job, you are almost always asked to write your salary requirements, and it's easy to find out how much professionals in different fields make in different states (there are web sites), but in general, asking someone how much he or she makes is not something Americans do (though, of course, they might discuss it between themselves about a third party ;)).

A few cultural observations:

Your job in America is definitely something that defines you. When you meet someone for the first time, you can expect that after they've asked your name, they will ask "So... what do you do?"

To a similar extent, I feel that your salary is what defines you in Poland, or at least it's very important. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked how much I make. I am sure part of it is just curiosity and I don't mind being asked, because the answer is always the same: "Not enough." ;)

Cheers!
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Noone likes to hear about these banking and other financial services guys with their huge bonuses. If the year were 1929 and we didn't have the internet forums and blogs on which to take out frustrations, some of them coulda got shot. My neighbor's salary information was often published in sports papers. Yet I would never bring it up. It's like your neighbor is in the paper for being arrested and you pretend you didn't know. Money talk goes in the "personal or private" category here no matter how much or how little you have. I don't know why we're socialized that way but it's just considered to be bad form to talk about how much someone else makes or to talk about your own earnings unless you're making a self-effacing joke.

It's kind of interesting that it gets its own discreteness. Some people can find it easier to initiate talk about the details of their sex lives than to discuss personal money matters including their wage or earnings.

Rafal, it's common for private-sector companies here to have rules that prohibit employes from discussing their salaries or wage with each other.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 03:33
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

As Marcin already mentioned, it is relatively normal to talk about money and money related topics, prices, fess and income in Germany. Although Germans are obsessed with the privacy of data, most of these information you'd easily find on the internet or your local workers union.
It is less common nowadays than it was, but it's far away from being a taboo topic.
Unlike what Andrzej said about the US, neither your job or your income defines you in Germany. It's simpler: You either have a job and are a productive part of society or you don't, which is when you are a leech. And this perception and with it the more less willingness to talk about money related topics creeps more and more into the German society.

PS: And to what Joy mentioned about the forbiddance to talk about income in some companies: Whatever US-companies introduce or do will come sooner and sooner to Germany.Bernd Schreckenberg edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 20:16
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Joj Y.:
Rafal, it's common for private-sector companies here to have rules that prohibit employes from discussing their salaries or wage with each other.
Yes, we have this as well, even though I don't think this works on
low levels. And it's not because "people talk". It's because shift workers, mill operators or what-have-you usually earn the same, give or take a few bucks a day. If I know how much I make, I know how much the 99% of the guys that work with me are making.

It doesn't work on the medium, high and especially not on the executive levels, where salaries are negotiated. So a guy sitting next me, doing exactly the same job I am doing, may be earning 50% more than I am. Or 50% less.Jarek A. edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 20:15
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

ilter K.:
But isn't it normal to have fluctuations?

Let's say you are a senior marketing manager for a Polish local company... you may earn 6 to 10k, and although the same job title, you could earn the double of that some place else.

In that sense, I see no point on sharing such info.

It's a different office, similar job, different stress ratio, different numbers.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 01:18

Wait, and what exactly are the minuses of such info sharing? Because I see at lease one plus, you can compare your earnings with your colleague at least. (I hope that another company in the same city is an the second obvious example and won't mention it therefore.)

So generally I see your argumentation as "current situation has no pros but changing it has probably no sense neither so it's ok".
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

(I've hit "Cytuj" instead of "Edytuj", sorry for doubling).

Andrzej:
I must say I'm surprised. Everytime I saw a job offering in the US there were a salary given, that's why I taught people talk about this there. Actually it can be easily seen in movies too (no laughing please ;) ).

What I also generally see is that it simply depends on the "level" of the job.

So maybe we could take few examples for the discusison:
1. Database administrator, college graduate, just after graduation
2. Lawyer working full time for some, let's say construction, company, 5 years of experience
3. "Low level" manager, a manager who leads a 4 persons group and does some "technical" things from time to time, 4 years of experience in technical field, 1 year in management, advertisement company let's say
4. Technical specialist, master of science degree, 15 years of experience in the field, number of customers and projects experienced, let it be electronics production plant this time.

Would they tell us how much they earn
a. to their co-workers
b. to their friends
c. when applying for another job
in your country?Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.11.09 o godzinie 21:16
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:
Wait, and what exactly are the minuses of such info sharing?
It's not a matter of minuses or pluses.

The question is "What's the point of sharing/telling what who earns?"?

If my ability to do a certain job were strictly connected with what I earn now (or what I have earned previously), we would be measuring how well we perform sex according to our penis/vagina sizes.
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

People don't like to talk about their pay.

1. At a work place it's simply considered unprofessional for various reasons.

2. In social situations you may come off cocky, full of yourself, or simply bragging and nobody wants to hear that.

3. Inquiring about someone else's wages is considered nosy. Why do you want to know how much I make? What difference does it make? Why should I tell you what I make? etc etc...

4. I personally could care less about what others make and as much as I'd hate to speak for the rest of Americans, but I think that's just the way people are over there. You make what you make and that's that.
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

ilter K.:
Rafał D.:
Wait, and what exactly are the minuses of such info sharing?
It's not a matter of minuses or pluses.

The question is "What's the point of sharing/telling what who earns?"?

You have my answer in one of the first posts. We could summarize it to: earn according to your technical skills, not negociating ones.
If my ability to do a certain job were strictly connected with what I earn now (or what I have earned previously), we would be measuring how well we perform sex according to our penis/vagina sizes.

Well, I don't get this comparision. Totally.

Rafał: Is 4. in opposition to 1. 2. and 3. or it is just my English skill?
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:
You have my answer in one of the first posts. We could summarize it to: earn according to your technical skills, not negociating ones.
Your professional skills are worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them. Not a penny more, not a penny less.
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Hm....

OK, I'll try to explain what I mean on an example.

Lets imagine you want to buy oranges on some market. You have 20 sellers on the market. You want to buy oranges but nobody tells you how much they cost, so you negotiate some price and start buying oranges from this seller every week. After some time though, you think that maybe other sellers have better or cheaper ones. Unfortunatelly nobody tells you what is their price, you also can not tell how much you pay for your oranges because your seller will then stop selling his oranges to you. Your friends are also buying oranges but you don't know their prices, nor oranges quality, neither. Your seller, ofcourse, is telling you that his oranges are the best and the cheapest ones.

This is basically how work market looks like. I don't call it normal but I'm totally free-market-biased. So there was the question if you guys call it normal. If so, no problem for me, just wanted to know :)

To go further if we agree that nowhere people talk about their earnings, regardless if they are allowed or not. One thing is sure, in the US you are being told how much you will earn when applying for a possition. In Poland not. I understood this wrongly as talking about earnings, ok. But then, is this the only difference between the countries? This is still unclear for me.

(Other countries may join ofcourse, just adding them to my already too complicated question is too hard for me. )Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 27.11.09 o godzinie 19:40
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

I had hard times figuring out rates for my work and work related work. Seems to be a friggin' secret amongst people.
Pretty aggravating in most cases, since the question is IMHO legit and the competition non existent. Or at least was.
I never asked in Poland how much one makes a month, but I asked about the fees for certain services and still it was treated as a big no. Never really came across such a problem in Germany.

The orange example nicely sums it up, Dzi! :)
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Jarek A.:
Your professional skills are worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them. Not a penny more, not a penny less.

Well, not entirely. What someone is willing to pay you depends hugely on yourself- your self-worth, being open to money, etc. To put it different way: you get what you consider 'normal' pay for the job you're going to do. Otherwise you wouldn't agree to do the job.
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