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Tim Harrell Lektor Angielskiego
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Jamie Stokes:
I do think that Poles tend to emphasis it's difficulty to foreigners because they are conditioned by the Polish education system to regard their own language as something difficult to be mastered rather than something natural.
http://mleczko.interia.pl/zdjecia/rysunki-kolorowe,105...
Not only, but also..
http://mleczko.interia.pl/zdjecia/rysunki-kolorowe,105...
and read more... Mleczko is brilliant!
Tim Harrell Lektor Angielskiego
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Steve Jones:
There are 3 genders and 14 case endings for Polish nouns (that's 42 possible endings to put on a noun)
Adjectives change endings to agree with the noun and the endings are different from the noun. That's another 3 genders multiplied by 42.
42 multiplied by 42 is 1764.
1764 is the calculation you have to make to stick a noun with an adjective in Polish.
In English there are 3 possibilities. Same adjective plus either plural noun or Saxon genitive.
3
Compare 1764 with 3
That's ignoring the fact that there is large-scale redundancy - syncretism - in Polish grammar which collapses the search space dramatically.
Just a few patterns I've come across while thumbing through a polish grammar book at bedtimes.
(note: sg - singular; pl - plural; N - nominative; A - accusative; G - Genitive; D - Dative; L - Locative; V - Vocative)
I've rendered them as transformations to emphasise how more obscure declensions reduce to simpler ones (eg with Nominative as the most basic form amenable to learners)
Masculine Nouns and Adjectives
------------------------------
Virile: G => A (sg and pl)
Animate Non-Virile: G => A (sg); A => N (pl)
Inaminate: A => N (sg and pl)
Feminine Nouns
--------------
D => L (sg)
A => N (pl)
Feminine Adjectives
-------------------
D => L => G (sg)
D => L (pl)
A => N (pl)
Neuter Nouns and Adjectives
---------------------------
V => A => N (sg and pl)
D => L (pl)
Note the following universals for nouns, true for both singular *and* plural
Virile (Masculine Personal): G => A; V => N
Masculine Inaminate: A => N
Neuter: V => A => N
Also, you can't simply multiply 42 for the nouns by 42 for the adjectives because that assumes that adjective declensions are entirely independent of the nouns they qualify. But a rule of polish grammar states that adjectives are bound to agree with the nouns in case, gender and number. Therefore, adjectives only amount to a doubling of the search space over nouns, not a 42-fold increase. In algorithmic (eg computer programming) terms it's one extra lookup in a table (keyed on case, gender and number), not a multiplication of the table by another of the same size (cartesian product).
So you see... Polish Grammar... what could be simpler? ;)
Call me a wanker
Ok, Vocative...Masculine...Personal...Singular... hold on a second, I'll just get my grammar book!Tim Harrell edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.06.08 o godzinie 00:25
Steve
Jones
Business English
Trainer, Translator,
Proofreader
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Tim Harrell:
Steve Jones:
There are 3 genders and 14 case endings for Polish nouns (that's 42 possible endings to put on a noun)
Adjectives change endings to agree with the noun and the endings are different from the noun. That's another 3 genders multiplied by 42.
42 multiplied by 42 is 1764.
1764 is the calculation you have to make to stick a noun with an adjective in Polish.
In English there are 3 possibilities. Same adjective plus either plural noun or Saxon genitive.
3
Compare 1764 with 3
That's ignoring the fact that there is large-scale redundancy - syncretism - in Polish grammar which collapses the search space dramatically.
Just a few patterns I've come across while thumbing through a polish grammar book at bedtimes.
(note: sg - singular; pl - plural; N - nominative; A - accusative; G - Genitive; D - Dative; L - Locative; V - Vocative)
I've rendered them as transformations to emphasise how more obscure declensions reduce to simpler ones (eg with Nominative as the most basic form amenable to learners)
Masculine Nouns and Adjectives
------------------------------
Virile: G => A (sg and pl)
Animate Non-Virile: G => A (sg); A => N (pl)
Inaminate: A => N (sg and pl)
Feminine Nouns
--------------
D => L (sg)
A => N (pl)
Feminine Adjectives
-------------------
D => L => G (sg)
D => L (pl)
A => N (pl)
Neuter Nouns and Adjectives
---------------------------
V => A => N (sg and pl)
D => L (pl)
Note the following universals for nouns, true for both singular *and* plural
Virile (Masculine Personal): G => A; V => N
Masculine Inaminate: A => N
Neuter: V => A => N
Also, you can't simply multiply 42 for the nouns by 42 for the adjectives because that assumes that adjective declensions are entirely independent of the nouns they qualify. But a rule of polish grammar states that adjectives are bound to agree with the nouns in case, gender and number. Therefore, adjectives only amount to a doubling of the search space over nouns, not a 42-fold increase. In algorithmic (eg computer programming) terms it's one extra lookup in a table (keyed on case, gender and number), not a multiplication of the table by another of the same size (cartesian product).
So you see... Polish Grammar... what could be simpler? ;)
Call me a wanker
Ok, Vocative...Masculine...Personal...Singular... hold on a second, I'll just get my grammar book!Tim Harrell edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.06.08 o godzinie 00:25
I agree there are patterns to be found which ultimately make life easier than the 42x42 connundrum. However, you do have to know these patterns first, you have to know what a dative feminine singular is and then you do have to match it with the dative feminine singular adjetive ending which is different from the noun ending. So, the 42x42 thing even if slightly exaggerated is still a pretty good indication of how complicated it all is.
And, Tim, with all of that analysis you did, you might be looking at some kind of grammar nerd of the year award.. ;))
konto usunięte
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Grammar nerd or grammar geek? I can't remember.
Steve
Jones
Business English
Trainer, Translator,
Proofreader
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
I'd suggest Golden Grammar Geek of the year 2008..Whatdayasay?
konto usunięte
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Tim Harrell:
Jamie Stokes:I do think that Poles tend to emphasis it's difficulty to foreigners because they are conditioned by the Polish education system to regard their own language as something difficult to be mastered rather than something natural.
http://mleczko.interia.pl/zdjecia/rysunki-kolorowe,105...
Not only, but also..
http://mleczko.interia.pl/zdjecia/rysunki-kolorowe,105...
and read more... Mleczko is brilliant!
Mleczko is great! rotfl ;)
I just love these cartoons...
Thanks for the link
:)
konto usunięte
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Nice to meet you, Dagmara.This must be your first post.
How about introducing yourself in the 'Welcome and Introductions' thread?
Sylwia
Łubkowska
Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Andrzej Dobrucki:
Polish is difficult to learn by foreigners. Grammatical cases + extremely rich vocabulary with tons of homonyms & chszrzdż sounds. It could make lots of people sick instantly.
Ha ha, that's why, whenever asked if Polish really is a difficult language to learn (one of those stupid questions asked by foreigners), I usually say 'yes, it's so damn difficult I'm really proud I've managed to learn it so well!' ;)
Mind you, you should have seen my sheer exasperation at trying to teach one English guy pronounce 'c' as 'ts' and not 'k' and the difference between 'córka' and 'kurka', but he would have none of it! ;)
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Steve
Jones
Business English
Trainer, Translator,
Proofreader
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Rafał D.:
Something about other languages. :)
That's interesting! So, Turkish kids learn their mother tongue (in a grammatically correct way) earlier...
Wonder if Ilter could comment on that: is Turkish piss easy?
Ilter
K.
Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
That's correct Steve.As a second language, phonetics is not an issue too. When one learns how the letters in Turkish sounds, it is easy to pronounce whetever is written.
Edit. There are 29 letters in Turkish. Additional ones are:
ç, ı, İ, ö, ş, ü
Foreigners usually start speaking Turkish after 3 months of language lessons when they are in Turkey.
Sentence structure seems a little strange at the beginning (like Yoda English), but it is easy to catch.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 20.06.08 o godzinie 18:19
konto usunięte
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Polish is a phonetic language? What you say is what you spell?If that case....
fshud = east
japko = apple
letko = light, easy
Need I say more?
Ilter
K.
Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...
konto usunięte
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Andre Chmielewski:
Polish is a phonetic language? What you say is what you spell?
If that case....
fshud = east
japko = apple
letko = light, easy
Need I say more?
leKKo, Andre. From now on I insist we speak Polish over coffee. And you call me "Pani Tatiano" or else! ;)
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Andre: OK, tell me, are you serious? ;)
Sylwia
Łubkowska
Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
I like 'Pani Tatiano' just as I like 'Pani Sylwio'. So much better than being called 'Łubkowska! Do odpowiedzi!' I'd cringe when I heard that and this trauma makes me not liking my surname very much to this day.
Lidia K. +
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
'Numer czternasty do odpowiedzi' was even worse.
Sylwia
Łubkowska
Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Lidia K.:
'Numer czternasty do odpowiedzi' was even worse.
Oh yeah. I was 'numer dziewiętnasty'. It brings associations with 'Slaughterhouse five' - puts you off from lerning numerals for life!
konto usunięte
Temat: Polish is an easy language:
Come on guys, get with the program!Of course "letko" is not a word... but no one ever really says it "lek-ko", it often comes out "letko". (trust me, it does! If you ever stop and listen to Polish people, you'd know)
Just like wschód is not spelled "fzhud" or that it's really "jabłko" but no one ever says that, they always say "japko".
This was a response to the claim that Polish has easy spelling and that what you say is usually how it's spelled. I just gave you some examples that caused me some problems in the past.
Now, what's scary to me is that no one seemed to comment on the fact that "japko" or "fzhud" were misspelled.... hahahahaha!
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