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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

A controversial topic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_cor...
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

I think this is just disgusting. One thing about the Holocaust which always gets me, is the fact that there is this thick line drawn between Poles and Polish Jews, where - Jew is not a nationality... a lot of those Jews' last names were Kowalski or any other popular Polish last name. What made them different was their religion, portraying those who were murdered at that time as anyone other than a Pole who practiced Judaism is simply absurd.
Trying to put the bargain of guilt and restitutions on Poland and it's citizens is absurd!
Let's be fair - there were animosities and hostilities between Christians and Jews in Poland prior to the Second War, but they did not constitute restitution rights for crimes committed on the entire nation by two the aggressors.
It was not Poles who build death camps, it was not Poles who build ghettos and it was not Poles who started the war.
Imagine a situation where an assailant brutally rapes two victims, then one of the victims turns around and takes the other victim to court just because they were assaulted in the same room and at the same time.Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.08.09 o godzinie 16:35
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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

it's a question of scale. there were over 3 millions of Jews in Poland before WW 2 - the biggest Jewish community in Europe. From purely financial point of view compensation for or surviving beneficiaries (inheritors) would be impossible for Polish state.
regarding what Rafal said about putting any blame on Poles(I haven't seen any of this in the bbc material) I would recomend everyone to read at least that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Po.... In my opinion simply the fact that over 10% of population of Poland was Jewish says a lot about the overall climate and tolerance for Jews in Poland.
I understand demands for a restitution. On the other hand one have to understand who is here to blame like Rafal explained. Putting Germany and Poland on the same level in this matter is simply obscene... It only give the ammunition to all those stupid scare mongers warning us about Germans/Jews coming back and taking homes from poor, honest Poles...
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Łukasz Sikorski:
(I haven't seen any of this in the bbc material)

The notion alone brings forth the idea.
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Here is an idea - how about Poland asking for restitutions for saving Jews - according to this article [yes, I know, it's only wiki, but this is a hypothetical situation and anyone considering it would sound just as obscene as Jews asking for restitutions from Poles]
... so, in accordance with this article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_d...

Poles are responsible for saving approximately 450, 000 Jews from "certain death". What sort of price should we put on livelihood of those who were saved? The idea of even trying to put a price on human lives is absolutely crazy.
Now, restitutions are supposed to be paid for stolen goods and lost property... who rebuild this country after almost a complete destruction? Did Poles not suffer under the communist regime? Did they not die for THEIR beliefs for years and years after the war was over and done with? Did they not suffer prosecution for wanting to be free?
This is what makes this entire idea so damned crazy! It didn't end with the war, it went on for years and years after. We COULD get down to the nitty gritty and like some do, dissect the ranks of the Polish secret police and go into what went on, on our eastern borders, but what is that going to change? Is it going to accomplish anything? I don't think so.
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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

I think those demanding restitution(not only Jews but also Germans for example) are trying to do is presenting it as a legal obligation of polish state in the first place and a moral obligation in the second.
I can understand demands from those forced out of Poland in 1968. This was done by a polish state, however corrupt and alien it was at the time, and by Poles alone.
But honestly, seeking restitution for any property lost during WW 2 from polish state is beyond my ability to understand. And inclining that there is ANY moral obligation on polish state and Poles for lost property between 39 and 45 is just weird...
From legal point of view the case is a bit more complicated. But as it was told in the bbc material polish state is at least trying... Now it's only about money. And I dare to remind, that we were not lucky enough to end up on the right side of the iron curtain like Germans, Austrians or Swiss...
And finally, it is a bit tasteless to haggle about money when you realize what is the reason of all this... Let them rest in peace.
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Łukasz Sikorski:
But honestly, seeking restitution for any property lost during WW 2 from polish state is beyond my ability to understand. And inclining that there is ANY moral obligation on polish state and Poles for lost property between 39 and 45 is just weird...

Yep.
From legal point of view the case is a bit more complicated. But as it was told in the bbc material polish state is at least trying...

Here is the thing... why is the Polish state trying? What are we supposed to say? I'm sorry that we were attacked and killed by the millions. [??] I hate to bring up the rape comparison again but have you ever seen a rape victim apologize to the attacker?
Now it's only about money. And I dare to remind, that we were not lucky enough to end up on the right side of the iron curtain like Germans, Austrians or Swiss...

I guess some need this reminder. Some on the other hand still have no idea. Many people in the state of Israel have no idea, the only thing that they know about Poland is that it's the biggest Jewish cemetery in the world... nobody is teaching them why however.
And finally, it is a bit tasteless to haggle about money when you realize what is the reason of all this... Let them rest in peace.

Tasteless is putting it mildly, I could think of many words to replace it with.
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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Unfortunately the legal side is not as obvious as the moral one. it is all about the continuity of state, etc. Additionally it is about the legal title to the property and the resulting right for the property held by those related to the deceased.
Legal title does not expire simply because 6 million people died in a war. From legal point those people are entitled to come and claim the property back and it is polish state's problem at the moment... Poland(PRL) could have resolved this matter years ago, by simply declaring that it will not be liable for any losses to property which occurred during WW2, etc. So the matter remained open. After '89 RP 3 simply declared itself as a continuation of pre-WW2 Poland and by doing this it accepted ALL legal obligations of pre-war Poland. End of story from legal point of view.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

I have not that much to add but:

In Germany fugitives were relocated and given to families with space. That led to a lot of resentment. The fugitives were 'compensated', they received a small sum of money, same as war victims, soldier, etc. It varied grossly from nothing to too much.

Still, there is talk about retrieving stolen goods, family belongings etc. Mostly from Russia, our Gasprom friend, which still blocks requests.
As from Poland, the German government has no claims. Private claims may be existing, in very few cases, but may, from a legal point of view, not succeed ever.

This will still long go on. And may neither legally nor morally nor emotionally be resolved in a satisfying way.
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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Bernd Schreckenberg:
In Germany fugitives were relocated

Do you mean 'refugees'.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

warren whitmore:
Bernd Schreckenberg:
In Germany fugitives were relocated

Do you mean 'refugees'.

Yes. Do you mean ? instead of . ? ;)
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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

teachers.... ;)
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Łukasz Sikorski:
teachers.... ;)

lol

PS: Btw, is lol-ing teacher-ish? ;)Bernd Schreckenberg edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.08.09 o godzinie 11:05
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Łukasz G.

Łukasz G. Senior Technical
Sales Manager w
Tripleplay Ltd.

Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Yep, Teacher's is not bad for a blend ;)
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Temat: Long quest for Polish restitution:

Ruth D. was born in England. She went to British schools, has a British job, uses British banks to make and store her British money, itd. I don't think she has any more right to Polish worker's money than I do - my great-grandfather having his properties nationalized. Never met him. I am not curious about his struggles.

If she is doing it for a cause, okay, get down how you get down, but would she be willing to foot the same percentage of her income that would be taxed on any common worker?

A nasty hag.

Silverware. Wow.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.08.09 o godzinie 18:16
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