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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Maria B.:
Well, as MA in Polish I have to disagree.
I love this argument :-)
OK - I have a BA in Youth and Community Studies so from now on I'm taking no shit on the subject of young people. Or communities. :-)Dave Andrew edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.09.08 o godzinie 16:56
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

This is the definition of "wyrafinowany" in "Słownik Języka Polskiego" by PWN:

wyrafinowany a) odznaczający się subtelnością, wysokim poziomem, wysublimowany, wyszukany ( e.g. wyrafinowany artysta,wyrafinowany gust,smak)
b) przejawiający się, odbywajacy się na wiele wymyślnych sposobów (e.g. wyrafinowane okrucieństwo, tortury)
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Malgorzata F.:
Andre Chmielewski:

I will have to disagree with you in terms of "wyrafinowany". It can be VERY negative in Polish. For example, "Ta kobeita szuka starego bogatego faceta. Ona jest bardzo wyrafinowana." So, "interesowna". The PWN Słownik confirms this definition.


I think you meant - WYRACHOWANA = INTERESOWNA

Wyrafinowana doesn't make any sense in this context


Wyrachowana pani, która używa wyrafinowanych metod aby oszukać tego bogatego faceta.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Dave Andrew:
Maria B.:
Well, as MA in Polish I have to disagree.
I love this argument :-)
OK - I have a BA in Youth and Community Studies so from now on I'm taking no shit on the subject of young people. Or communities.
Well I think this is an argument. You have knowledge of youth and community and I have quite a good knowledge of Polish language and Literature.

BTW Michal I don't know which dictionary you used. The one I have on line says:

wyrafinowany
1. «będący wyrazem wysokiego poziomu umysłowego, artystycznego, technicznego itp.; też: o kimś reprezentującym taki poziom»
2. «przejawiający się lub odbywający na wiele wymyślnych sposobów; też: o kimś zachowującym się w taki sposób»
wyrafinowanie
wyrafinować «oczyścić, metodami chemicznymi lub fizycznymi, substancję ze zbędnych domieszek»
wyrafinowanie
1. «cecha tego, co jest wyrafinowane»
2. «dążenie do osiągnięcia własnych celów, nawet kosztem innych, zachowując pozory szlachetności»

and here is the link
http://sjp.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=wyrafinowany

and one more thing which all on line dictionaries don't have - is the way how the word is used mainly in the literature. So in other discussions I always remind everybody that the final is Dictionary done by Doroszewski - which is the only Great Polish dictionary with examples of the ways words are used in literature.

BTw Dave it's a bit like this - if I need to proof read any text I never ask any English native speaker. The reason is simple - they make mistakes in the same way Poles do, or any other nations as a matter of fact. I ask a native speaker who graduated either in languages or literature.Maria B. edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.09.08 o godzinie 17:27
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Sorry, Maria. It's "Uniwersalny Słownik Jezyka Polskiego" pod redakcją prof. Stanisława Dubisza, PWN,2003.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Maria B.:
BTw Dave it's a bit like this - if I need to proof read any text I never ask any English native speaker. The reason is simple - they make mistakes in the same way Poles do, or any other nations as a matter of fact. I ask a native speaker who graduated either in languages or literature

Well in that case you wouldn't ask me - and I'm good at proof-reading.
Maybe Poland's different but in Britain being a graduate in something means bugger all - IMHO.Dave Andrew edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.09.08 o godzinie 17:31
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Łukasz G.

Łukasz G. Senior Technical
Sales Manager w
Tripleplay Ltd.

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Michał B.:
Steve, from what I know (and I don't know too much, so beware!) the word "wyrafinowany" ("sophisticated") is often used in Polish to describe cunning and devious methods used to cheat someone and methods of torture and cruelty.
I think you confused it with "wyrachowany" ;>
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Maria B.:

BTw Dave it's a bit like this - if I need to proof read any text I never ask any English native speaker. The reason is simple - they make mistakes in the same way Poles do, or any other nations as a matter of fact. I ask a native speaker who graduated either in languages or literature.

I wouldn't agree here. Natives do make mistakes, but not necessarily same as non-natives. If I was to take names away from posts and placed them on a single page, I am 99% sure that you’d be able to tell a native from a non-native, even if the non-native person had a BA, MA, Phd or the who gives a crap diploma. You either know the lingo like it’s your own and not think twice about whether any given sentence is correct, or you know the lingo like… well like you’ve learnt it from school and it may sound and look just fine, yet no native would ever use it in the way that it’s written. That’s the main difference. Isn’t it all about remaining as close to the true feeling and atmosphere conveyed in the original as linguistically possible?
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

(pl) idziemy na piwo = (en) let's go out and drink ten pints and vomit somewhere
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Łukasz G.:
Michał B.:
Steve, from what I know (and I don't know too much, so beware!) the word "wyrafinowany" ("sophisticated") is often used in Polish to describe cunning and devious methods used to cheat someone and methods of torture and cruelty.
I think you confused it with "wyrachowany" ;>

Łukasz, no!:) I can say 'wyrafinowane sposoby torturowania człowieka'(not common, ordinary or simple, but special and sophisticated ones), and when one says 'wyrachowane sth' it means to me obliczone na uzyskanie konkretnego efektu, zysku, done in cold blood.
A super expert in Polish has spoken...!
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

I'm enjoying this - an argument about polish vocabulary in English. I'd pay good money to watch this.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Dave Andrew:

Well in that case you wouldn't ask me - and I'm good at proof-reading.
Maybe Poland's different but in Britain being a graduate in something means bugger all - IMHO.

Just off topic quick question - will you give an editorial, that may be published in The Times to be proofread by MSc in engineering?
I would not.
Maybe we have a different understanding of proof reaidng. Part of my job is to proof read articles and editorials published in newspapers. So I check not only grammar mistakes but also the way they are writte and how well are they written. With all due respect to engineers but I haven’t met a single one who would be capable of writing poems or anything that’s close to literature.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Maria B.:
Dave Andrew:

Well in that case you wouldn't ask me - and I'm good at proof-reading.
Maybe Poland's different but in Britain being a graduate in something means bugger all - IMHO.

Just off topic quick question - will you give an editorial, that may be published in The Times to be proofread by MSc in engineering?
I would not.
Maybe we have a different understanding of proof reaidng. Part of my job is to proof read articles and editorials published in newspapers. So I check not only grammar mistakes but also the way they are writte and how well are they written. With all due respect to engineers but I haven’t met a single one who would be capable of writing poems or anything that’s close to literature.

I don't understand the question. I think it needs proof-reading haha
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Dave Andrew:

I don't understand the question. I think it needs proof-reading haha

Ths is quite possible
:))))
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Dave Andrew:
With all due
respect to engineers but I haven’t met a single one who would be capable of writing poems or anything that’s close to literature.

This is a shame. You need to meet more engineers.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Rafal W.:

I wouldn't agree here. Natives do make mistakes, but not necessarily same as non-natives.
Absolutly correct.

Althoug natives make serious mistakes, right? Mistakes that would not be acceptable in a written text. The question is whther every native can see these when reading a text. The best example (in Polish - please excuse me for this) is "na dzień dzisiejszy". It's widely used in speach and in writing. And it's a mistake, because in Polish dzień can only be "dzisiejszy" - it's pleonasm. So most Poles when proof reading will not consider this as a language mistake, while those who really know the language will. And only those are capable of proof reading - this is my opinion.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Maria B.:
Rafal W.:

I wouldn't agree here. Natives do make mistakes, but not necessarily same as non-natives.
Absolutly correct.

Althoug natives make serious mistakes, right? Mistakes that would not be acceptable in a written text. The question is whther every native can see these when reading a text. The best example (in Polish - please excuse me for this) is "na dzień dzisiejszy". It's widely used in speach and in writing. And it's a mistake, because in Polish dzień can only be "dzisiejszy" - it's pleonasm. So most Poles when proof reading will not consider this as a language mistake, while those who really know the language will. And only those are capable of proof reading - this > is my opinion.

Agree...
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

I don't see a direct connection between the diploma/certificate and proofreading.
In order to do any proofreading, one has to have done the reading a lot and should be experienced.
I've done a lot of corrections on texts which were written by literature grad students, although I am not one of them.
I'm talking about my mother language, by the way.
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Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

Perhaps I gave the impression that I was claiming to be a good proof-reader in Polish. I didn't mean that and I would be hopeless :-)
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: False Friends between Polish and English

No, it wasn't you who gave the impression.
I think it was Rafał.
Or I'm not sure.
Where are we.

Oh, native speakers wouldn't do the same mistakes.
Perhaps I'm late for the discussion a bit.
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