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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

This is reviving an old debate.

However, I don't feel we should always steer clear of difficult issues.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gi...

Was Giles Coren's article unacceptable and inaccurate?

Or are Poles in denial concerning anti-semitism?

Btw, I'm just raising the issue.

For now I'm not giving an opinion one way or the other.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 19.08.08 o godzinie 12:05
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

I've read his article and found it truly offensive. One thing that is always for some reason forgotten is the fact that while people were being killed for their religious beliefs world wide, Poland over 300 years ago became the first country to declare freedom of religion. Which in turn caused a mass exodus of Jews and Muslims from the neighboring countries into Poland. Although, I am well aware that nothing was 100% peachy, because that's never the case, Poland was the biggest host for these two religions in central Europe for centuries. By the time second war came around, those Jews were just as Polish as any other person born and raised in Poland. They were simply Poles who were Jewish (least we forget that Jewish is not a nationality). So when we say things like - Jews were murdered during the occupation, we can say - Polish Jews were murdered. There are always talks about how many people sold Jews to the nazis, how about how many people did AK (Armia Krajowa) killed for giving up Jews... look it up, it is a staggering number.
I can't really speak objectively on this subject, it always brings my blood to boiling, my great grand mother in Konstancin during the occupation was hiding out three Jewish families.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

I would like to put forward a hidden and insidious nature of prejudices/stereotypes concerning nations.

They operate on two levels: conscious and unconscious.

The conscious level is often correlated with individual soul component is less negatively biased. The individual German for example might be trustworthy and reliable, maybe lacking some fantasy and spontaneity...

The subconscious level often correlated with group soul component.
THEY (Germans as a group) are perfectly organized, army-like society with somewhat militaristic and imperialistic tendencies...

I think it operates in similar way with Jews and anti-semitism.

The group soul components that lie dormant could easily be activated by unfavourable media portrayal for instance.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

After Pilsudski's death, there were some anti-semitic undercurrents in Polish politics. For instance, we wanted to acquire a colony - initially Madagascar, afterwards possibly Angola or Liberia - to deport our Jewish population. To boost migration, Sionist groups actually received covert support. Exactly the same ideas were soon pursued by Germany's Reinhard Heydrich - at least until he came up with the Endlosung.

As in any country, there were bad and good Poles. You can't bleach history overnight, and I think that admitting those facts would be conducive to further reconciliation.

Rafał is completely right regarding the assimillation and tolerance issues. And if you analyse "gwara warsiaska", you'll see that it's an amalgamate of Polish, Russian and Yiddish.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

I would definitely agree with that. What also plays a key role is the extremist beliefs of nations or religious factions that we get to see. Usually the extreme cases are what we see, with out even trying to look deeper into any culture, what we do see is headlines and news whilst the average citizen for most part is hardly considered news. So for example, we can see the extreme unwelcoming behavior of anti-Semites in various countries, just as if we would go to visit Jerusalem and the first thing we would probably notice is the unwelcoming behavior of Hassidic Jews who just like Muslim or Christian extremist feel that they are the chosen ones and any infidel (ie. Tourist) should not be allowed to put their feet on their promised/holly land.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Let's put history aside for a moment and let's take a look at contemporary statistical data on racism and xenophobia. According to 'Report on Racism and Xenophobia in the Member States of the EU' page 123 (link) in 2005 we had following number of cases of racist violence and crime:

Poland - 172 cases
Germany - 15,914 cases
England & Wales - 59,902 casesPrzemek H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.08.08 o godzinie 20:39
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Przemek H.:
Let's put history aside for a moment and let's take a look at contemporary statistical data on racism and xenophobia. According to 'Report on Racism and Xenophobia in the Member States of the EU' page 123 (link) in 2005 we had following number of cases of racist violence and crime:

Poland - 172 cases
Germany - 15,914 cases
England & Wales - 59,902 casesPrzemek H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.08.08 o godzinie 20:39

I don't really think this proves anything.

Poland is a homogeneous country compared to Britain, therefore I don't believe there are a significant number of potential racial targets.

Furthermore, how many racial incidents are reported depends on how the police report and record racial incidents, rather than the number of racial incidents themselves.

There would be few recorded incidents of anti-semitic attacks in Poland because there isn't really a visible Jewish community left to attack.
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Michał B.:
I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.

Where?
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

warren whitmore:
Furthermore, how many racial incidents are reported depends on
how the police report and record racial incidents, rather than the number of racial incidents themselves.

On the page 121 of the same report you will find a table 'Quality of official criminal justice data collection mechanisms on racist crime/violence'. Poland was qualified in the second-best category, labeled 'good', together with Germany and that means that values for both countries are comparable. UK is placed in the best category ('Comprehensive') and that makes it harder to compare values for UK with values for other countries. Nevertheles the Polish reporting system maybe less than perfect but number of unregistered cases is not big enough to explain the difference between Poland and other countries.
There would be few recorded incidents of anti-semitic attacks in Poland because there isn't really a visible Jewish community left to attack.

How do you know that? Isn't it just a pure guesswork? In other words: how do you know that members of visible Jewish community would be attacked?Przemek H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.08.08 o godzinie 21:03
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

warren whitmore:
This is revising an old debate.

Actually, I'm tired both of being sorry for the sins commited by others and denying xenophobia, anti-semitism or any other kind of intolerance occuring in this country.

Amen.
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

warren whitmore:
Michał B.:
I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.

Where?

For example in the States.
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Magda B.:
warren whitmore:
This is revising an old debate.

Actually, I'm tired both of being sorry for the sins commited by others and denying xenophobia, anti-semitism or any other kind of intolerance occuring in this country.

Amen.

I'm with you, Magda.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Przemek H.:
Nevertheles the
Polish reporting system maybe less than perfect but number of unregistered cases is not big enough to explain the difference between Poland and other countries.

The difference in figures is easily explained by the fact that Poland does not have any significant ethnic communities.
There would be few recorded incidents of anti-semitic attacks in Poland because there isn't really a visible Jewish community left to attack.

How do you know that? Isn't it just a pure guesswork? In other words: how do you know that members of visible Jewish community would be attacked?

I don't.

However having been in Polish football crowds chanting anti-semitic slogans, and having met some neo-Nazi skins, I'd say there's a fair chance that they might be.

But again, I don't know for sure.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Michał B.:
warren whitmore:
Michał B.:
I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.

Where?

For example in the States.

Really?
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Magda B.:
warren whitmore:
This is revising an old debate.

Actually, I'm tired both of being sorry for the sins commited by others and denying xenophobia, anti-semitism or any other kind of intolerance occuring in this country.

Amen.

Who do you have to deny xenophobia and anti-semitism to?

I'm sorry for bringing this up.

I was just trying to continue the following debate in English.

http://www.goldenline.pl/forum/londyn/448448

Also, I would like to state that I'm interested in reasonable debate here and not stupid arguments.

Finally, I just happen to be curious.
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Michal B.

Michal B. stud.

Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Michał B.:
I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.

Where?

For example in the States.

Really?

There are strange things going on in the States regarding the pre-war Jewish property in Poland. Without going into details, I should say if you don't know what's it all about, it must be about money.
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Michał B.:
warren whitmore:
Michał B.:
I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.

Where?

For example in the States.

Hey Michal, if you could elaborate more I’d be interested in your opinion on this subject. I haven’t really met anything out of ordinary here other than a horribly disorganized and out of control immigration policy which wrongs everyone equally. I think we have it pretty good here if we only try. There are other nations that live within the US who get harassed daily, not to mention races.Rafal W. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.08.08 o godzinie 21:41
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

Michał B.:
Michał B.:
I think anti-polonism (if i may call it this way) is an equally serious problem these days.

Where?

For example in the States.

Really?

There are strange things going on in the States regarding the pre-war Jewish property in Poland. Without going into details, I should say if you don't know what's it all about, it must be about money.


OK, I know what you are talking about, but that’s hardly got anything to do with anti-polonism. I thought you meant outwardly opened hate or menacing harassment claims. In my opinion those claims are .. well pretty wrong to put it nicely.Rafal W. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.08.08 o godzinie 21:46
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Temat: To what extent is Poland anti-semitic?

warren whitmore:
Who do you have to deny xenophobia and anti-semitism to?

I no longer do, Warren...
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