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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

The White House calls this a "noteworthy event"

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/09/28/iran.mis...
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

I really don't know why it's such a big deal if Iran gets to have nuclear weapons.
Is there a rule that they can't have it? Any treaty forbidding it? Did Iran attack any country since I-don't-know-when?
About Iraq, we'd already known that. But what's up with Iran?

Israel is the ONLY country in the region having nuclear weapons and "it's OK".
What a crappy double standard... and they made the whole World believe, Iran shouldn't have the nukes while Israel has the right to have them...ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 28.09.09 o godzinie 10:58
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Paweł G.

Paweł G. Instytut Fizyki
Plazmy i Laserowej
Mikrosyntezy,
Project ...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Well, concerning this double standard - as far as I know, there were no "Jew terrorists" who attacked innocent ppl from other countries, but there were "islam terrorists" who did it several times. I think it's the issue. You shouldn't give such a deadly weapon to an unstable country in which a group of people can come to power and decide that "unbelievers should be nuked".
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Nuclear arsenal:

Britain around 160
USA 5535 (some of them in Germany)
Israel 60 to 400
France 300
Russia 6681
India 45 to 95
Pakistan 70 to 90
China around 180

North Korea 6 to 8
Iran?
Syria?

So what could happen, if a 'rogue state' or axis of evil dictator wants to bomb an European city? Would they even dare, knowing, that the mass of destruction after that inflicted upon them, would exceed everything they can do to 'us'?

Is the fear of a crazy mad man having his hand hovering over the red button (compare to the Cold War) as justified or as big as the fear of 'dirty bombs'? Chemical attacks? Terrorist attacks? Poisoning of food and water supplies?

Where will this fear lead to? To a preventive attack? How can that be justified?
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Paweł Gąsior:
Well, concerning this double standard - as far as I know, there were no "Jew terrorists" who attacked innocent ppl from other countries, but there were "islam terrorists" who did it several times.
1- How do you know?
2- Which terrorist attack are you referring to?
3- Does "islam terrorist" mean, it equals to = "Iran"?
I think it's the issue. You shouldn't give such a deadly weapon to an unstable country in which a group of people can come to power and decide that "unbelievers should be nuked".
Just like US, bombing the countries because they don't have a democratic regime, right?
hehe
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Paweł Gąsior:
You shouldn't give such a deadly weapon to an unstable country in which a group of people can come to power and decide that "unbelievers should be nuked".

Unstable? What about the Cuba crisis? Or other such Cold War incidents? Who says the USA can't be unstable in the future, when they are completely broke and far from being a super power?
That's not the best definition then, is it? ;)
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Where will this fear lead to? To a preventive attack? How can that be justified?
Exactly.
This is what they want.

+
a fact:
Iran is the next big oil supplier who switched to Euro, instead of US $ to sell its oil.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

ilter K.:

So that's why the preventive helmet? :D
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

No. Joj advised me to fly to south.
It's windy up there.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

ilter K.:
No. Joj advised me to fly to south.
It's windy up there.

South South, South-East or South-West?


Obrazek


or:


Obrazek


:DBernd Schreckenberg edytował(a) ten post dnia 28.09.09 o godzinie 13:19
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

You are the king of OT. :)
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

ilter K.:
You are the king of OT. :)

rotfl

PS: Looks like you finally found out what I'm good at ;) Thanks. Now I only have to find a way to turn it into money. Any suggestions? :PBernd Schreckenberg edytował(a) ten post dnia 28.09.09 o godzinie 13:25
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Andrzej S.

Andrzej S. Krok za krokiem, do
przodu.

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

try running some parliament ;)
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Paweł G.

Paweł G. Instytut Fizyki
Plazmy i Laserowej
Mikrosyntezy,
Project ...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Paweł Gąsior:
You shouldn't give such a deadly weapon to an unstable country in which a group of people can come to power and decide that "unbelievers should be nuked".

Unstable? What about the Cuba crisis? Or other such Cold War incidents? Who says the USA can't be unstable in the future, when they are completely broke and far from being a super power?
That's not the best definition then, is it? ;)

Sure, it's not the best definition, but still I don't know better one.
From my point of view it would be the best if no single country had nukes, but it's raher unrealistic, so I think that the best possible solution is simply that no new countries should have nukes as it would only increase the risk of escalation.
From two bad scenarios, I prefer the one in which US nukes "evil ones" than the one in which everyone nukes everyone.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Paweł Gąsior:

Sure, it's not the best definition, but still I don't know better one.
From my point of view it would be the best if no single country had nukes, but it's raher unrealistic, so I think that the best possible solution is simply that no new countries should have nukes as it would only increase the risk of escalation.
From two bad scenarios, I prefer the one in which US nukes "evil ones" than the one in which everyone nukes everyone.

Agreed. But it's a modern problem, where we higher developed countries try to tell or bully developing countries, like in Southern America or Africa - generally the whole Southern hemisphere more or less. We tell them how to build industries, what not to destroy for the sake of nature and what devices not to build.
While this is generally a nice thing, sharing experiences, we don't motivate them to follow those advises. Instead they see us, with the mistakes we made in our histories and rightfully show us the door. It's a give and take which only works with strength of argument. So, they think building nuclear bombs is the only way to get everybody around the round table and to have a more detailed discussion...
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Paweł G.

Paweł G. Instytut Fizyki
Plazmy i Laserowej
Mikrosyntezy,
Project ...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Agreed. But it's a modern problem, where we higher developed countries try to tell or bully developing countries, like in Southern America or Africa - generally the whole Southern hemisphere more or less. We tell them how to build industries, what not to destroy for the sake of nature and what devices not to build.
While this is generally a nice thing, sharing experiences, we don't motivate them to follow those advises. Instead they see us, with the mistakes we made in our histories and rightfully show us the door. It's a give and take which only works with strength of argument. So, they think building nuclear bombs is the only way to get everybody around the round table and to have a more detailed discussion...

Also agreed. Indeed, it's a deep and sophisticated problem how to deal with such problems in let's honestly say, underdeveloped countries.
It should be (and I bet it is) a subject of a broad international discussion what we should give them to distract them from expressing hostility one to another.
Let's take a glance at Iran and Israel. In regard of wealth they both have all means to become wealthy and civilized peacefully coexisting countries. But they don't want to. The reasons are deep in their minds and i'm afraid that atm it's just this asymetric situation which keeps unstable status-quo (Israel: if you attack us we nuke you. Iran: Ok, we don't attack. And then if they had nukes they could say - np, then we'll nuke you too!). Maybe I'm wrong and too pesymistic, but well, I'm afraid of such a situation.

And the problem with other "uncivilized" countries is even worse. Sometimes our actions in trying to civilizy them has completely unexpected results, eg. the case of Pol Pot who returned from studies in Paris and unleashed a hell on earth in his country.

Damn, dealing with such problems is really too tough for me.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Paweł Gąsior:

And the problem with other "uncivilized" countries is even worse. Sometimes our actions in trying to civilizy them has completely unexpected results, eg. the case of Pol Pot who returned from studies in Paris and unleashed a hell on earth in his country.

Pol Pot, yeah. The classic example of a guy who, after achieving a high education, thinks he's better than everybody else and with the god given mission to create a pure master race.
Works with dumb nuts like Hitler, or smart and intelligent guys like Stalin or Pol Pot. You just have to feel the inner urge, the voice of god... Or whatever.

A German proverb says: Wisdom doesn't protect from stupidity. (Weisheit schuetzt vor Dummheit nicht.) Meaning that high intellect or education doesn't prevent you from doing the dumbest things.
Damn, dealing with such problems is really too tough for me.

Not only you... Believe me on that one :P
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

I think Iran should have nukes. Syria too. And maybe Egypt as well.

Israel has nukes.
Let them all nuke each other.

That region needs some clean-up.

Neither US nor Europe can do anything about Golan heights, invasive behaviour of Israel.
Israel is playing cat & mouse game with Palestinians, it's good to add another cat to the game.

If they want a fight, it should be a fair fight.
Let them sort it out.

Do you have a better plan?

Of course not. It should be solved in UN, with the help of US.
Yeah right...

PS. In some parts of my post, I was joking.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 28.09.09 o godzinie 19:39
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konto usunięte

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Paweł Gąsior:
Well, concerning this double standard - as far as I know, there were no "Jew terrorists" who attacked innocent ppl from other countries, but there were "islam terrorists" who did it several...

Read Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. Western man claims he is better only because he uses more eloquence to justify his actions, and in fact he is worse because he tends to play God if he can (give him only a chance, exempt him from social, democratic control), unleashing hell with modern technology. We have nuts on our side as dangerous as Osama BinLaden. We are as guilty as islamic preachers. AlQuaida is the product of the West, people trained in querilla war and unleashed to fight Soviet Russia. And after they were used, there was no plan to demilitarise them, to turn them into doves. They were abandoned to themselves. The use of Muslim religion was instrumental, the part of social engineering to make a perfect soldier, tougher than Specnaz.

As for querrila warfare...high altitude bombing with cluster or phosphorus or thermobaric bombs with numerous "collateral damage" is Allies (Israeli plus Western, ours) good equivalent of islamic terrorism.
Occasionaly nuts are known beforehand to get ready for a terrorist attack and someone or other puts a blind eye ...to justify high spending on defense.

I am tending to believe when both sides have nukes, the conflict will cease. Both sides will start talking. Like once Western leaders and mass murderer uncle Stalin.Jacek Kotowski edytował(a) ten post dnia 28.09.09 o godzinie 21:20
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Iran fires off long-range missiles

Paweł Gąsior:
Well, concerning this double standard - as far as I know, there were no "Jew terrorists" who attacked innocent ppl from other countries,

State sponsored terrorism is still terrorism.
but there were "islam terrorists" who did it several times.

There are Israeli soldiers who do it almost every day.
I think it's the issue. You shouldn't give such a deadly weapon to an unstable country in which a group of people can come to power and decide that "unbelievers should be nuked".

Yes, I agree, supplying a rouge state such as the state of Israel with weapons of mass destruction could cause "some" tensions in the area.
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