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Temat: Banned books

Banned books:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8284509.stm

Top of the banned pops:
a book for kids about gay penguins and their baby:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Tango_Makes_Three

Promotion of the penguins book on Polish market:
http://nauka.trojmiasto.pl/info_imp.php?id_imp=131035

What do you think?


Obrazek
1.10.2009, 16:07
Ilter

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Banned books

Banning books and not wanting to see the `Pinguin story` in kids' literature is a little different, I think.

About the And Tango Makes Three...
Ignoring the parent factor and trying to educate kids about homosexuality is plain ignorance itself, me thinks.

The education starts in the family.

And I don't think there are laws banning people from buying the book and giving them to their kids to read.
But pushing the book to school libraries?
- I don't think so. Not yet. We're not there yet.

But if there are books banned from being printed - that's ridiculous, of course.
1.10.2009, 16:23

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Temat: Banned books

ilter K.:

About the And Tango Makes Three...
Ignoring the parent factor and trying to educate kids about homosexuality is plain ignorance itself, me thinks.

Could you expand on that? :-) I don't get it and I'm interested in what you think.
But pushing the book to school libraries?
- I don't think so. Not yet. We're not there yet.

1. So you mean it should be BANNED from school libraries?

2. Can it be in other libraries for kids, then?

3. You say "Not yet. We're not there yet."
What do you mean by "we're not there yet"? Isn't it exactly the reason why such a book being available might make sense? What needs to happen so we "were there" already? What's going to happen if the book is in libraries now, while we're "not there yet"? What's wrong with the book, you think?

If we were still in the era of apartheid or women with no civil rights, would it be a "not yet" for a book about black people or women voting, studying, thinking, making life decisions for themselves? Or would it be inappropriate?
1.10.2009, 16:51
Bernd

Bernd Schreckenberg We are the
facilitators of our
own creative
evolution.

Temat: Banned books

Kamila G.:

Well, the Vatican has it's list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitor...

There are numerous books banned in Germany, f.i. Mein Kampf, but mostly movies or games.

About censorship in Germany:

http://www.censuriana.de/01text.htm

The censorship department:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundespr%C3%BCfstelle_f%C...

IMHO there is no justification to ban a book which is based on facts (apart from it coming into conflict with existing laws), while certainly not everything which goes to print has to be printed.

Making things not available for kids or non-adults is a noble thought, but as Germany shows with countless examples, it too often leads to blunt censorship, where the people, who are in charge, make things unavailable due to their taste and 'expert' decisions.

If I don't like something, I don't buy it or watch it or notice it and will explain it to my kids, why I think so or why they shouldn't...
1.10.2009, 18:10
Krzysztof

Krzysztof S. Live hard, sell
hard.

Temat: Banned books

Honestly, guys.
It's sick. Just imagine. How many of you wanted to be just like indiana jones? winnetou? How many of you played war on the playground after reading a book about the heroes of WWII?
Now... How do you think? How many kids, finding the penguins cute will start playing papa penguing and papa penguin? Do we really want to raise a (...) Zobacz więcej
1.10.2009, 18:15
Bernd

Bernd Schreckenberg We are the
facilitators of our
own creative
evolution.

Temat: Banned books

Krzysztof S.:
Honestly, guys.
It's sick. Just imagine. How many of you wanted to be just like indiana jones? winnetou? How many of you played war on the playground after reading a book about the heroes of WWII?
Now... How do you think? How many kids, finding the penguins cute will start playing papa penguing and papa penguin? Do we really want to raise a homosexual generation?

I don't think it would work like that. There are kids who want to be Winnetou, there are kids who want to be the bad guy. It's the parents responsibility to explain things to the kids. When mommy and daddy read a story like this with their kid about penguins, it's as abstract as reading Harry Potter or seeing Ice Age. Or did you ever encounter kids who started flying around with brooms, talking to animals...

Btw, how did kids come up with the idea of killing frogs, ripping wings out of flies, poking into ant-hills? I certainly did not read what they must have read... ;)
1.10.2009, 18:34

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Temat: Banned books

Krzysztof S.:
Honestly, guys.
It's sick. Just imagine. How many of you wanted to be just like indiana jones? winnetou? How many of you played war on the playground after reading a book about the heroes of WWII?
Now... How do you think? How many kids, finding the penguins cute will start playing papa penguing and papa penguin? Do we really want to raise a homosexual generation?
You're funny. Not haha funny, though. Ever read the Superman comics? Did they make you wanna fly so bad you tried?
No wait, if they had, you wouldn't have written that post.
1.10.2009, 19:56
Krzysztof

Krzysztof S. Live hard, sell
hard.

Temat: Banned books

Tatiana S.:
You're funny. Not haha funny, though. Ever read the Superman comics? Did they make you wanna fly so bad you tried?
No wait, if they had, you wouldn't have written that post.
Is flying physically possible?
Is playing family with two dads physically possible?
Is making out physically possible?
Just thinking about the posibility of two men or women raising a child together makes me sick.
I know ppl from broken families. Raised by their father or mother only. And i know how fucked up their minds are.

Whatever. Do as you like. I don't really give a fuck.
I would just hate havin' fags as my childs rolemodels.
1.10.2009, 20:07
Bernd

Bernd Schreckenberg We are the
facilitators of our
own creative
evolution.

Temat: Banned books

Krzysztof S.:

Is flying physically possible?
Is playing family with two dads physically possible?
Is making out physically possible?

There are many more things physically possible, kids get from books, comics, movies and games: Like amok-runs, torture, playing with fire, chemicals, even weird pseudo-sexual practices.
Btw, what about Donald Duck? One uncle raising three nephews...
Or Asterix and Obelix. Aren't they gay? They certainly live together and in one episode even raise a kid, kinda.
Or Thorgal. He's a sweet role-model.
Just thinking about the posibility of two men or women raising a child together makes me sick.

And that's just your right to do so.
I know ppl from broken families. Raised by their father or mother only. And i know how fucked up their minds are.

Which speaks for the abilities of their parents more than it does for single-parent-household in general.
Whatever. Do as you like. I don't really give a fuck.

No need to fucking swear though, right? ;)
I would just hate havin' fags as my childs rolemodels.

But what kind of role model would you like? How about a hetero sexual couple, nice people, both working but having time for their kids, sending their kid to Sunday school, where the kid gets touched by a priest, the kid comes home, has problems, finally talks to it's parents, the parent's beat the kid, because they think it's lying, and doesn't want to go to church, and send it, yet force it to go again and be molested again....

One example out of many possible, ain't it?
1.10.2009, 20:20
Krzysztof

Krzysztof S. Live hard, sell
hard.

Temat: Banned books

Bernd Schreckenberg:
torture,
c'mon. don't tell me you never "played with" insects.
playing with fire,
do you know even one kid that didn't play with fire?
Btw, what about Donald Duck? One uncle raising three nephews...
i was wondering how he got the nephews? he didn't have a sister as far as i remember :)
Or Asterix and Obelix. Aren't they gay? They certainly live together and in one episode even raise a kid, kinda.
Obelix has a crush on a woman. He can't be gay.:>
Or Thorgal. He's a sweet role-model.
Dunno Thorgal.
Which speaks for the abilities of their parents more than it does for single-parent-household in general.
OK. The thing is... We've got let's say Tommy. He is raised by a gay couple. His life is wonderful, bright and shiny. Tommy is getting older, and... What is happening. He doesnt know ANYTHING about women. He doesn't know how to treat them, he doesn't know what the difference between the role of a mother and a father is and so on... How do you think. Will Tommy be able to create a proper family?
But what kind of role model would you like? How about a hetero sexual couple, nice people, both working but having time for their kids,
brilliant! :
sending their kid to Sunday school, where the kid gets touched by a priest,
naaaah. i kind of would prefer to keep my as far as posible from the whole clerical-god-power-allmighty-thingy bullshit
1.10.2009, 20:34

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Temat: Banned books

Krzysztof S.:
Whatever. Do as you like. I don't really give a fuck.
I would just hate havin' fags as my childs rolemodels.

You will be one for your children, so reconsider using the word "fags" :)
1.10.2009, 20:36
Bernd

Bernd Schreckenberg We are the
facilitators of our
own creative
evolution.

Temat: Banned books

Krzysztof S.:

OK. The thing is... We've got let's say Tommy. He is raised by a gay couple. His life is wonderful, bright and shiny. Tommy is getting older, and... What is happening. He doesnt know ANYTHING about women. He doesn't know how to treat them, he doesn't know what the difference between the role of a mother and a father is and so on... How do you think. Will Tommy be able to create a proper family?

I don't think that many Polish kids learn the proper way to treat a women from their fathers. Or in a traditional Muslim family. Or in a family where the father is a drunk. Or in a family where the father is secretively gay. Or in a family where the father likes his kids more than his wife...

Making a woman-man-heterosexual thing the only proper family role model stands on feet of clay :P
1.10.2009, 20:45

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Temat: Banned books

I think it's a foolish waste of time to try to ban that book from public libraries. But those people who would try can get down how they wanna get down.

I don't support having it in the general school library circulation.

Tax dollars, through levels of government, provide for two-thirds the cost of education where I live. As a taxpayer, I would be glad if teachers in my districts could have it as an accessory tool on a parental consent basis. I think it looks like a valuable book that could help to initiate accounting for a fact of life.

As a hopeful future parent, thanks but no thanks. Don't read it to my kid as part of a lesson plan. I can do that much better, and I want to.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.10.09 o godzinie 06:33
2.10.2009, 06:20
Ilter

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Banned books

Kamila G.:
ilter K.:
About the And Tango Makes Three...
Ignoring the parent factor and trying to educate kids about homosexuality is plain ignorance itself, me thinks.

Could you expand on that? :-) I don't get it and I'm interested in what you think.
Of course I could.

As I wrote earlier, we first need to educate the parents. We need to tell them that the homosexuality is not an infectious disease. People my age in the future should know what really the homosexuality means.

Parents should be taught what it is, so when they want to tell children what it is, it's not going to be too different than explaining what the sex is.

This is needed, because the education starts in the family, and you don't mess with the family... it'd be a lost cause from the beginning.
Psychologists do know, or should know the importance of family, and don't play the God on shaping the the children's mind. Maybe it is for the better, but there are things to be solved, before going there.

Who's going to educate the parents?
I think that's a political decision. We need serious, ongoing, and sustainable mass education and awareness campains to do that.

Teachers or the school won't cut it. We don't have that many John Keatings and definately don't have that many Sean Maguires.

We have a billion of unaware/uneducated parents.

But pushing the book to school libraries?
- I don't think so. Not yet. We're not there yet.

1. So you mean it should be BANNED from school libraries?
No. It shouldn't be allowed to put into the school libraries. :) "We're not there yet".
2. Can it be in other libraries for kids, then?
It can be sold seperately :)
For the reason I listed above, it should be -for now- under parents' supervision for the kids to read such books.

My best application would be when the kid starts asking questions about sexuality, and especially same sex couples.
If the kid is not puzzled, there's no need to intervene. The nature, the education in the family sorts it out.
But IF the kid is puzzled, I'd find that book wherever it is, and make my child read it - if it's that good - I don't know. So, the book could be an "introduction". It could only be an introduction, because the books are NOT the source where we learn the life. THE LIFE itself is the biggest school.
Parents is the key at start.
3. You say "Not yet. We're not there yet."
What do you mean by "we're not there yet"?
We are not that civilised and educated about the matter yet.
You see it even in here, in Anglospehere - where it's supposed to be the crème de la the crème...
What's wrong with the book, you think?
I haven't read it, how can I know.

But that's not the point.

The book could have been the bible for the mankind, I don't care.
But we, ... I think the stuff above I wrote explains that bit.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.10.09 o godzinie 11:22
2.10.2009, 11:04

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Temat: Banned books

What a bizarre thread. Given that in any school somewhere between four and fifteen per cent of children are or will be gay it seems to me to that it’s vital that a school library contains books with positive examples of gay lives.
It’s vital for the gay children and equally vital for the boring old hetero community, as it will help to combat bigotry. Yes, I’d say the school library is probably the single most important place for such a book (...) Zobacz więcej
2.10.2009, 12:24
Ilter

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Banned books

Parents, Dave, will not accept it, and you don't have to be a genius to (...) Zobacz więcej
2.10.2009, 13:02

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Temat: Banned books


Obrazek
2.10.2009, 16:31

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Temat: Banned books


Obrazek
2.10.2009, 16:33

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Obrazek
2.10.2009, 16:35

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Temat: Banned books

Are they talking about us?


Obrazek
2.10.2009, 16:40

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